PS: since i'm not an rbr fan, or Webber or Vettel fan i would just like to see them fight each other...if a dnf resulted i would not mind at all, it would be more points for Kimi... s" title="reds" />
sure, I want to see them fight and it was exciting to watch but fair it wasn't. They were told to keep position and turn down the engine. Mark did, I think his outlap was about 2 seconds slower than Seb's. would that have happened if he knew Seb will fight? And all his talk afterwards, I don't know if he is honest but to say he didn't do it on purpose is too much. He did, he only wanted to win and Horner said that too.. that it would have made no sense to tell him to give the position back because he wouldn't have listened.
i found this post from Tomba at f1 technical forum that lists what happened:
Zitat Webber drove to target laptimes asked by his engineer. Vettel believed this was too slow and said to his engineer "Mark is too slow, get him out of the way". The team replied it was just halfway in the race. - After the final stop, both drivers were said through the radio (the message to Vettel was broadcast for everyone) to keep strategy "multi21", meaning car 2 stays ahead of car 1 - Webber turned down his engine as requested and was told Vettel would not pass - Vettel ignored the"multi21" order/request and kept pushing to get Webber - Webber then asked his team again what was the situation, noting that Vettel was closing in on him. He was told again that positions would be maintained (and the team still believed it would happen this way) - Vettel attacks and passes Webber, displeasing Newey and Horner on the pitlane. Horner said after the race "Vettel took it in his own hands". - Vettel went on to explain in different way, going from "it was not intentional" to "if I knew it would end like this I would not have taken so much risk to pass Mark".
Well that is what Webber told after Silverstone 2011:
Zitat“I ignored the team and I was battling to the end.â€
"I just want to race until the end. Of course I ignored the team because I wanted to try and get a place. Seb was doing his best, I was doing my best. I wasn’t going to crash with anyone.â€
I think if they had an agreement before the race that they hold station after last pit stops, Seb should honour that agreement. But I'm 100% sure that Webber would do the same thing Seb did today... and if he wouldn't succeed he would whine how the team used team orders.
I wonder how much bad press RB gets because of this whining form Mark? In 2010 he was complaining when the team didn't make him No.1 when he was leading the championship (he was okay with team orders then), he whined when they took his wing away, he was against team orders in Silverstone 2011... it's always him against the evil RB team... but he keeps signing for them every year.
In my opinion the Vettel and Webber issue has two sides.
It is customary that teammates will keep their positions after the last pitstop in a race. The team dont want teammates to fight to much as they can crash into each other. Which has obviously happened before with Vettel and Webber. The drivers are team employees who gets paid by the team.
Here is what I think the issue is with Vettel, or rather let me say that I think this might be the way that people view the situation. Vettel tries really hard to create the impression that he is one of the cool guys, and that he is really just a nice everyday boy next door. But every once and a while you get these outburst from him, especially when he is under pressure. Our true character does tend to reveal itself much more when we are under pressure. So whenever these events happen people believe they are getting a glimpse of Vettel's true character, and it is very different from the joking carefree guy he tries to portray in the media. It seems to be ruthless and quite self serving, which properly shouldn't be such a big surprise for everyone, you dont just become a 3x WDC without being a bit self serving. But the problem is there are many people who obviously dont like to see these qualities in their hero's. On the other hand there are also people who really like and support people with these qualities. People also dont like it when they think something is unfair. In this particular incident Vettel was obviously in the wrong, he didn't listen to his team, and because of that someone else lost out. But Vettel will not even get any punishment for his actions, he will only be rewarded. Even on the team radio you hear Horner saying come on that is silly, but it is said with an equal amount of admiration. It is like scolding a child while you are actually still patting him on the back.
Webber on the other hand suffers a bit from a big mouth. But he isn't without a case here. We all know full well that there has been incidents where Webber has been disadvantaged. He has had to give up places for Vettel, Vettel does get updates before him. He is obviously the second driver in the team. But he has at times also matched Vettel. He does have a case. But Webber is also a bit of a complainer. In the past he has been very vocal about the treatment he has gotten, which is fair enough. But at some point you need to stop complaining and take action, you cant play the victim card forever. It is a bit like the beaten spouse syndrome effect, at some point people lose sympathy. If Webber really feels so mistreated and if the situation is really that bad, then why doesn't he just leave the team? His contract has been extended on a yearly basis for years now. If he doesn't want to be the second driver then he could always just leave the team, otherwise you've got to suck it up and stop complaining.
That being said I think Webber actually acted more maturely in this particular incident then he has done before. I dont think he really complained about the situation. If you look at how they acted just before the podium ceremony, Webber was the one who was keeping a cool head, while Vettel kept on pursuing him. On the other hand this was actually one of Vettel's most impressive victories in my opinion, it isn't easy to just pass you're teammate. But he acted wrongly by not listening to his team and Webber suffered a loss as a result. The playing field wasn't level as Webber had already lessen his pace and started to prepare for last run with preservation.
I guess when you really break the problem down then it comes back to the teams. Should teams be allowed to interfere with racing positions? Should they just completely leave drivers alone to fight on track without any interference by not giving out instructions to remain in the same position for the last run? Or now orders for second drivers to give up potions, even in the end of the champion hunt? The problem is one could always say that the drivers are team employees and that their salaries are payed for by the team. It goes back to the question of how much F1 is a sport or a business.
You could tell something was brewing with the radio messages and all.
Then Webber sticking his finger up at Vettel after the overtake.
Was it a fair fight? Maybe not, but Webber defended aggressively and came back to attack Vettel.
I think the faster driver won in the wrong way, I just don't like the double standards applied by the majority of those slating Vettel at the moment.
Webber attacks Vettel at Silverstone 2011 disobeying team orders and still couldn't get past.
Vettel does it, gets passed with a great fight with Webber coming back at him and gets slated.
When Webber did it, people said he was in the right to do it, Vettel does it, and it's a whole SHABANG!
Not saying eithers right, but it's a funny old world ain't it?
Either way, I couldn't give a shit. It doesn't change my opinion on the Red Bull team, Vettel or Webber, my opinion on them has stayed constant throughout them being together.
Also, post race interactions with Vettel and Webber looked like a soap opera, as if a couple had found out one cheated on the other " title="giggle" />
OK, I dont know if Seb 'potrays' himself as someone in the media. I have found him to be genuine. And this win at all costs is also part of his character. Just that people reveal their ugly self only when they are cornered.
As for this, he took matters into his own hands, I suppose if Vettel could take matters into his own hands, why didnt the fiesty australian do the same. Well Vettel broke their trust, never a good thing to do. Guilty. But why didnt webber increase his pace, look at how merc handle the situation.
OH and lewis saying nico deserved to be on podium, oh really, then why did he overtake him back? ( i consider that as an example of portraying to the media )
Zitat von Ragingjamaican Was it a fair fight? Maybe not, but Webber defended aggressively and came back to attack Vettel.
I think the faster driver won in the wrong way, I just don't like the double standards applied by the majority of those slating Vettel at the moment.
Webber attacks Vettel at Silverstone 2011 disobeying team orders and still couldn't get past.
It was a pretty good victory from Vettel. I do think there are some double standards as Webber was clearly also wrong in the Silverstone incident.
Zitat von YiNingDon't think Webber was the matured one, he said he had thought about it for 15 laps and then this was what he did on the cool down lap...
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Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:51 pm
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