And here comes Alonso the shit stirer " title="roll" /> " title="vomit" />
- Sepang shows Red Bull not united. It doesn't happen to Ferrari, we're the most united. - (about the 1st lap contact with Vettel) he practically stopped in the middle of a corner. He was at least 10kph slower. It was a surprise to find him there.
Some people are speculating that the team & Helmut are not on Vettel side cos he may really be joining F-team sooner than later. h" title="hih" /> F1 circus... " title="whistle" />
Zitat von icemaidSome people are speculating that the team & Helmut are not on Vettel side cos he may really be joining F-team sooner than later. F1 circus...
and i read at another forum that a tabloid at Oz wrote that Webber is having talks with his manager and he may even want to quit...but its a tabloid... " title="dunno" />
Zitat von Boudica Here is what I think the issue is with Vettel, or rather let me say that I think this might be the way that people view the situation. Vettel tries really hard to create the impression that he is one of the cool guys, and that he is really just a nice everyday boy next door. But every once and a while you get these outburst from him, especially when he is under pressure. Our true character does tend to reveal itself much more when we are under pressure. So whenever these events happen people believe they are getting a glimpse of Vettel's true character, and it is very different from the joking carefree guy he tries to portray in the media. It seems to be ruthless and quite self serving, which properly shouldn't be such a big surprise for everyone, you dont just become a 3x WDC without being a bit self serving. But the problem is there are many people who obviously dont like to see these qualities in their hero's. On the other hand there are also people who really like and support people with these qualities. People also dont like it when they think something is unfair. In this particular incident Vettel was obviously in the wrong, he didn't listen to his team, and because of that someone else lost out.
I agree with that. Vettel is a nice guy when he's not in the car but on track he can be very ruthless. I think it's part of the reason why he's a 3x WDC. He just wants to win, that is his motivation.
You think he lost some fans because he overtook Webber? How many fans did Alonso lose when he tried to blackmail his team? Or because of Singapore 2008 (he considers it one of his best wins), or Germany 2010? I'm sure some but not much, if anything he gained some. He's one of the most popular drivers and team bosses voted him the best driver in F1 so they don't mind his actions either. Lewis lied to the stewards, Kimi can be very rude... but these are the drivers that are by far the most popular in F1. The only mistake Seb did yesterday was to apologize. He should just get out of the car and say "yeah, I'm a ruthless son of a bitch... deal with it". I bet he would have the same number of fans (or more). The same people who now say how horrible he is, were saying what a "racer" Webber is in Silverstone 2011. Double standarts at its finest.
I still think that Vettel should follow team orders (because they agreed beforehand what to do in that situation) but I would be more upset with him, if his teammate wouldn't be Mark. Vettel was imo frustrated that he lost the lead when he switched to dry tyres too soon and after that he was instructed to not even get close to Webber because the team was afraid that the tyres wouldn't last. He thought he was faster than Mark that frustration showed in the end, when he ignored team orders.
I think Seb's mistake is that he tries to please everyone when he's not in the car. The same with his team. RB hanged their 3x WDC out to dry yesterday and for what? Do you think that because of that RB has a better image now with the F1 fans or press? I don't think so. Do you think that Ferrari would act the same way towards Alonso? No way.
Zitat von Boudica Webber on the other hand suffers a bit from a big mouth. But he isn't without a case here. We all know full well that there has been incidents where Webber has been disadvantaged. He has had to give up places for Vettel, Vettel does get updates before him. He is obviously the second driver in the team. But he has at times also matched Vettel.
I don't know how many times Vettel gets updates before him? I'm pretty sure that they always race with the same updates but maybe he gets them first for FP? As a 3x WDC that is to be expected. But if that makes him a clear No.1 then Kimi is also a clear No.1 at Lotus because he not only gets them first, he's also the only one that gets them sometimes. So if Romain is a clear No.2, losing to him sucks even more. But I don't think it's that simple.
Zitat von Boudica If Webber really feels so mistreated and if the situation is really that bad, then why doesn't he just leave the team? His contract has been extended on a yearly basis for years now. If he doesn't want to be the second driver then he could always just leave the team, otherwise you've got to suck it up and stop complaining.
Why doesn't he leave? Because he knows that being at RB is his best chance to win a WDC. Not just because they have a quick car but because he knows that being Fernado's team mate or Lewis' is just as hard.
Zitat von Denorth guys, you don't go far enough in the past. first one to brake peace in the team was Vettel in Turkey in 2010. Full stop
What about Turkey 2009 (?) ? Mark was okay with "hold station" then... not okay in Silverstone 2011... and again okay in Malaysia 2013. Notice a pattern? " title="wink" /> And that is what I don't like about Mark and the media response to this... double standarts. Still, doesn't make what Vettel did right.
But the important thing from yesterday's race is that Lotus sucks in the wet and that their dry pace was nothing special. A lot of people said that Romain was just looking for excuses when he said that his car was great on friday in Australia but was totally different in the race. Well now the same thing happened to Kimi. I hope they can solve this soon but I'm not dreaming about WDC anymore.
ZitatLotus not surprised by dip in form in F1 Malaysian Grand Prix
Lotus boss Eric Boullier says there is nothing to be surprised about with the fluctuating form of his team in the first two races of the campaign.
After Kimi Raikkonen won the season opener in Australia, the Finn and his team-mate Romain Grosjean were not a factor at the front in the Malaysian Grand Prix as they finished more than half a minute adrift of race winner Sebastian Vettel.
Boullier reckons that such variations in form were what the team was expecting for the season, especially because of the complications caused by the 2013 Pirelli tyres.
"It is a prediction we had after the winter testing," said Boullier. "It is going to be very, very tight.
"I think you can expect, mainly because of the tyre management situation, a different race winner each time.
"But we can say we are definitely in the top four. Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull and us are very, very close."
Boullier thinks that the difficulties Raikkonen and Grosjean had in extracting speed from the car in wet conditions - allied to time lost working their way back up the order – were the main factors behind its failure to finish on the podium at Sepang.
"First it was [wet] qualifying and then we did not make the best start ever," he said.
"After that, we lost a lot in the first stint compared to the leaders, especially Mercedes.
"If you then compare the race pace after that, we were not bad. We were there."
Boullier does concede, however, that perhaps Lotus' competitive advantage in Australia was exacerbated by rival teams not getting their set-ups sorted.
"In Melbourne clearly we had an advantage because again some circumstances during qualifying and Friday practice did not help some teams to get their set-up ready," he said.
Zitat von Boudica Here is what I think the issue is with Vettel, or rather let me say that I think this might be the way that people view the situation. Vettel tries really hard to create the impression that he is one of the cool guys, and that he is really just a nice everyday boy next door. But every once and a while you get these outburst from him, especially when he is under pressure. Our true character does tend to reveal itself much more when we are under pressure. So whenever these events happen people believe they are getting a glimpse of Vettel's true chararcter, and it is very different from the joking carefree guy he tries to portray in the media. It seems to be ruthless and quite self serving, which properly shouldn't be such a big surprise for everyone, you dont just become a 3x WDC without being a bit self serving. But the problem is there are many people who obviously dont like to see these qualities in their hero's. On the other hand there are also people who really like and support people with these qualities. People also dont like it when they think something is unfair. In this particular incident Vettel was obviously in the wrong, he didn't listen to his team, and because of that someone else lost out.
I agree with that. Vettel is a nice guy when he's not in the car but on track he can be very ruthless. I think it's part of the reason why he's a 3x WDC. He just wants to win, that is his motivation.
You think he lost some fans because he overtook Webber? How many fans did Alonso lose when he tried to blackmail his team? Or because of Singapore 2008 (he considers it one of his best wins), or Germany 2010? I'm sure some but not much, if anything he gained some. He's one of the most popular drivers and team bosses voted him the best driver in F1 so they don't mind his actions either. Lewis lied to the stewards, Kimi can be very rude... but these are the drivers that are by far the most popular in F1. The only mistake Seb did yesterday was to apologize. He should just get out of the car and say "yeah, I'm a ruthless son of a bitch... deal with it". I bet he would have the same number of fans (or more). The same people who now say how horrible he is, were saying what a "racer" Webber is in Silverstone 2011. Double standarts at its finest.
I still think that Vettel should follow team orders (because they agreed beforehand what to do in that situation) but I would be more upset with him, if his teammate wouldn't be Mark. Vettel was imo frustrated that he lost the lead when he switched to dry tyres too soon and after that he was instructed to not even get close to Webber because the team was afraid that the tyres wouldn't last. He thought he was faster than Mark that frustration showed in the end, when he ignored team orders.
I think Seb's mistake is that he tries to please everyone when he's not in the car. The same with his team. RB hanged their 3x WDC out to dry yesterday and for what? Do you think that because of that RB has a better image now with the F1 fans or press? I don't think so. Do you think that Ferrari would act the same way towards Alonso? No way.
I dont think Alonso tries to portray himself as a nice guy. You are right about apologizing someone like Alonso wouldn't apologize for his behavior. It is the same thing with the cursing on the podium last year, Vettel apologized while Kimi didn't. Vettel makes it seem as if he needs people's approval. Vettel is still pretty young eventhough he is a 3x WDC, he still has a lot to learn.
Vettel doesn't have as much many fans as some of the other champions, eventhough he has done very well for himself and he is obviously very talented. But I dont think the drivers really cares much about fans or rather about how many fans they have, their job is about driving the car and I am sure that is the most important thing for them at the end of the day.
But I think part of the reason why Vettel doesn't have so many fans or why people struggle to connect with him, is because of this perceived duel quality in his personality. People see it as Vettel purposely deceiving them, he says one thing but his actions say something else. You cant be wishy washy, and then seek people's approval at the same time, they will just end up judging you.
Zitat von valuk
Zitat von Boudica Webber on the other hand suffers a bit from a big mouth. But he isn't without a case here. We all know full well that there has been incidents where Webber has been disadvantaged. He has had to give up places for Vettel, Vettel does get updates before him. He is obviously the second driver in the team. But he has at times also matched Vettel.
I don't know how many times Vettel gets updates before him? I'm pretty sure that they always race with the same updates but maybe he gets them first for FP? As a 3x WDC that is to be expected. But if that makes him a clear No.1 then Kimi is also a clear No.1 at Lotus because he not only gets them first, he's also the only one that gets them sometimes. So if Romain is a clear No.2, losing to him sucks even more. But I don't think it's that simple.
There is always favoritism in a team. Well especially in the top teams things are not equal. For me personally this is no issue at all. I see why the teams do it, like you said Vettel is a 3xWDC he would be the obvious choice to support. Alonso is the 2x WDC it is obvious why Ferrari are supporting him. Same thing with Kimi he is the WDC it is obvious why Lotus is supporting him. It is for this reason why I always felt Ferrari was particularly incompetent when Kimi drove for them. They had the WDC but supported the second driver, that is some moronic business practices if there ever was any.
But you are also right to say it isn't always that simple. Red Bull creates their own problems between Vettel and Webber. They have tip toed around Webber and around the public. Again they have the same issue here, they try to create the image that their team is cool and fair, a bit like Mclaren. So when they are caught out, they clearly lie to the public and people dont like it when they feel they are being lied to. It is practically the same issue that Vettel has with the public, they are obviously also interlinked.
Ferrari has actually got it right, they dont try to hide what they are doing, and Massa knows he cant really complain about it in public and he knows he is never allowed to end up ahead of Alonso. While in the case of Webber, Red Bull tip toes around him they give or allow him to have some results in order to appease him and the public. They try to please too many sides.
Lotus again has a different approach, they know Kimi is delivering and he has delivered for them last year, not just on the track but commercially as well. They know it makes sense, business wise to support Kimi, but if you looked around they made pretty sure that everyone knew that Kimi had parts that Grosjean didn't have. Kimi is always in a less powerful situation then Vettel and Alonso, because Grosjean is their protege who has grown up with the team and they want him to do well. If Kimi had a few races like he did this weekend they would quickly change their alliances to Grosjean. Just like they did last year around the Valencia GP. I am sure if Grosjean actually started to complain in public, he would lose a lot of standing and support within the team, and he properly knows this pretty well. He still has potential to well within the team, in the future, but he would lose that completely if he complained and moaned in public. Lotus are being good business men, at the moment they know where their fortune lies, with Kimi, so he gets the support.
Zitat von valuk
Zitat von Boudica If Webber really feels so mistreated and if the situation is really that bad, then why doesn't he just leave the team? His contract has been extended on a yearly basis for years now. If he doesn't want to be the second driver then he could always just leave the team, otherwise you've got to suck it up and stop complaining.
Why doesn't he leave? Because he knows that being at RB is his best chance to win a WDC. Not just because they have a quick car but because he knows that being Fernado's team mate or Lewis' is just as hard.
That is just wishful thinking.
That is my point, Webber is getting a personal pay off by staying with the team, the longer he stays with them the more he is telling them that he condones being the 2nd driver. Vettel is their 3x WDC they are not just going to stop supporting him. Webber should know pretty well by now where he stands, and yet he stays. By his actions he is condoning Red Bull's treatment of him, so at this stage he cant really complain much about the situation anymore. Clearly the pay off is enough for him, otherwise he would leave.
As I said both have been wrong before, Vettel in Turkey, Webber in Silverstone, and Vettel this time. Clearly Red Bull has not always been good at managing the situation. I am not really comparing the situation against other drivers or other teams. With the way F1 currently is, the team has all of the power and they are always right. I dont really have any issues with any of the drivers I think they have a pretty difficult task to balance their professional, personal and public lives, while at the same time they are always under the control of their teams. The teams are in control, so I find it difficult to dislike any driver and I try to understand their different personalities and backgrounds.
But at the same time Kimi spoils me, he is top driver but he usually does the right thing on track, he admits his mistakes and he doesn't complain. You would never see Kimi landing up in the position that Vettel now finds himself in.
Why does Bouillier say it's close between Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull and us? No mention of Mercedes, and not sure if I would put McLaren at that tier yet, Malaysia and China, typically suits McLaren.
Zitat von Denorth guys, you don't go far enough in the past. first one to brake peace in the team was Vettel in Turkey in 2010. Full stop
What about Turkey 2009 (?) ? Mark was okay with "hold station" then... not okay in Silverstone 2011... and again okay in Malaysia 2013. Notice a pattern? And that is what I don't like about Mark and the media response to this... double standarts. Still, doesn't make what Vettel did right.
I noticed the pattern - after being screwed by partner in Turkey 2010 Webber goes 'selfish'. The difference with Vettel - Vettel decided to be selfish not after Turkey 2010, but before. Talking about action and reaction here. So far - Mark is reacting on Vettel's actions. Sometimes over the top (Brazil 2013), which I personally really didn't like. very negative that was. But so far it is Vettel who actually 'steps over' the line.
ZitatBut I think part of the reason why Vettel doesn't have so many fans or why people struggle to connect with him, is because of this perceived duel quality in his personality. People see it as Vettel purposely deceiving them, he says one thing but his actions say something else. You cant be wishy washy, and then seek people's approval at the same time, they will just end up judging you.
this is how Seb makes me feel....there's something about him that makes me button up... " title="dunno" />
Zitat But at the same time Kimi spoils me, he is top driver but he usually does the right thing on track, he admits his mistakes and he doesn't complain. You would never see Kimi landing up in the position that Vettel now finds himself in.
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Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:41 am
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first one to brake peace in the team was Vettel in Turkey in 2010. Full stop
" title="wink" /> And that is what I don't like about Mark and the media response to this... double standarts. Still, doesn't make what Vettel did right.
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" title="no" /> not me 
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" title="hmm" /> then what is it about Seb that make Kimi open up to him?