Zitat von Denorth

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I have to say I spend a half an hour thinking about 2nd driver for Lotus and... Gro is the best variant probably. Especially if they have someone to replace him midseason (would be stupid not to have such condition in contract).

I didn't go into statistics or any hard evidences, apart from points (I think).
and my conclusion - he is fast. faster than Perez of Koba. with the similar rate of shitty races. the difference is not huge. It is just the situation in F1 that those 'new' boys are all a bit crash kids. They bump into each other and push their way through. Koba been in F1 for more than one season and still like this. Senna - similar situation. So there is no point really to replace one to another. and Gro is fast.
Heikki - not really a variant. He seems to be on downward way (again).
From 'old' guys I would probably think about Glock.

But still - Gro is the lesser of the evil, fast and brings some money. It just might be that all the possible '+' at least equals all the possible '-'

Plus - I like when Kimi has a fast partner in the team.

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Grosjean wouldn't be a bad choice he is fast, and there isn't a lot of testing these days perhaps rookies just needs more time, although he is less of a rookie then the traditional rookie. In a way it would be counterproductive for Lotus's plans if they didn't give Grosjean another chance. They are looking for a driver for the future so they have to show that they believe in Grosjean.

However, I personally feel someone like Koba could be a much better choice for the team. They dont need someone who is fast, they need someone who can finish races 2-3 places behind Kimi, consistently. That is how you move forward as a team and that is how you gather points, and in that sense I think Koba would be a much better choice.

The one strike for me against Grosjean is that if he wasn't a pay driver then he would have been fired this season. Back in the day if others like Kimi, Alonso, Lewis ext. ext. had driven this way they would never have seen another season of F1. I just cant imagine how much money he has costed the team in repairs. And other teams also cant be happy with the repair costs.

But on the other hand I also dont think it would be bad thing if they do give another chance.

Zitat von Boudica

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Zitat von Denorth

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I have to say I spend a half an hour thinking about 2nd driver for Lotus and... Gro is the best variant probably. Especially if they have someone to replace him midseason (would be stupid not to have such condition in contract).

I didn't go into statistics or any hard evidences, apart from points (I think).
and my conclusion - he is fast. faster than Perez of Koba. with the similar rate of shitty races. the difference is not huge. It is just the situation in F1 that those 'new' boys are all a bit crash kids. They bump into each other and push their way through. Koba been in F1 for more than one season and still like this. Senna - similar situation. So there is no point really to replace one to another. and Gro is fast.
Heikki - not really a variant. He seems to be on downward way (again).
From 'old' guys I would probably think about Glock.

But still - Gro is the lesser of the evil, fast and brings some money. It just might be that all the possible '+' at least equals all the possible '-'

Plus - I like when Kimi has a fast partner in the team.

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Grosjean wouldn't be a bad choice he is fast, and there isn't a lot of testing these days perhaps rookies just needs more time, although he is less of a rookie then the traditional rookie. In a way it would be counterproductive for Lotus's plans if they didn't give Grosjean another chance. They are looking for a driver for the future so they have to show that they believe in Grosjean.

However, I personally feel someone like Koba could be a much better choice for the team. They dont need someone who is fast, they need someone who can finish races 2-3 places behind Kimi, consistently. That is how you move forward as a team and that is how you gather points, and in that sense I think Koba would be a much better choice.

The one strike for me against Grosjean is that if he wasn't a pay driver then he would have been fired this season. Back in the day if others like Kimi, Alonso, Lewis ext. ext. had driven this way they would never have seen another season of F1. I just cant imagine how much money he has costed the team in repairs. And other teams also cant be happy with the repair costs.

But on the other hand I also dont think it would be bad thing if they do give another chance.

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This is a good debate.

Personally: I think Lotus should have went for Hulkenburg. It would have been a risk, but I think the future of Hulkenburg appears brighter than Grosjean at the moment. But this is a moot point now, as Hulkenburg has a drive for next year. If Lotus was really thinking about the future, this would have been the best move. And I think Hulkenburg would have jumped at the offer, as Lotus appears a better team than Sauber.

Regarding Grosjean, I see more negatives than plusses at the moment. But that could change in 2013. I agree with Boudica that Grosjean likely would not have seen another season in F1 if it wasn't for an era of 'pay drivers.' But how could Grosjean be considered a 'pay driver' for all of the money in damages he has caused the team? Surely these damages must be in excess or nullify the money Grosjean brought to the team. Which essentially means the team aren't making money by having him as a driver after factoring in the salary (~1million if I recall correctly).

The problem with Grosjean is his (lack of) spatial awareness. This is a recurring theme from lesser formulae. And it has hindered his driving at the highest level. There is no question he is very fast in qualifying. But spatial awareness doesn't have to be taken into account during Q3. And points aren't scored on Saturday. As Kimi routinely showed his teammate throughout 2012. Can Grosjean overcome this defunct in his driving? If he does: than the future may be bright. But another year of Crash-Jean will surely spell the end of his F1 career at Lotus.

Zitat von Sonny

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Zitat von Boudica

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Zitat von Denorth

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I have to say I spend a half an hour thinking about 2nd driver for Lotus and... Gro is the best variant probably. Especially if they have someone to replace him midseason (would be stupid not to have such condition in contract).

I didn't go into statistics or any hard evidences, apart from points (I think).
and my conclusion - he is fast. faster than Perez of Koba. with the similar rate of shitty races. the difference is not huge. It is just the situation in F1 that those 'new' boys are all a bit crash kids. They bump into each other and push their way through. Koba been in F1 for more than one season and still like this. Senna - similar situation. So there is no point really to replace one to another. and Gro is fast.
Heikki - not really a variant. He seems to be on downward way (again).
From 'old' guys I would probably think about Glock.

But still - Gro is the lesser of the evil, fast and brings some money. It just might be that all the possible '+' at least equals all the possible '-'

Plus - I like when Kimi has a fast partner in the team.

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Grosjean wouldn't be a bad choice he is fast, and there isn't a lot of testing these days perhaps rookies just needs more time, although he is less of a rookie then the traditional rookie. In a way it would be counterproductive for Lotus's plans if they didn't give Grosjean another chance. They are looking for a driver for the future so they have to show that they believe in Grosjean.

However, I personally feel someone like Koba could be a much better choice for the team. They dont need someone who is fast, they need someone who can finish races 2-3 places behind Kimi, consistently. That is how you move forward as a team and that is how you gather points, and in that sense I think Koba would be a much better choice.

The one strike for me against Grosjean is that if he wasn't a pay driver then he would have been fired this season. Back in the day if others like Kimi, Alonso, Lewis ext. ext. had driven this way they would never have seen another season of F1. I just cant imagine how much money he has costed the team in repairs. And other teams also cant be happy with the repair costs.

But on the other hand I also dont think it would be bad thing if they do give another chance.

---

This is a good debate.

Personally: I think Lotus should have went for Hulkenburg. It would have been a risk, but I think the future of Hulkenburg appears brighter than Grosjean at the moment. But this is a moot point now, as Hulkenburg has a drive for next year. If Lotus was really thinking about the future, this would have been the best move. And I think Hulkenburg would have jumped at the offer, as Lotus appears a better team than Sauber.

Regarding Grosjean, I see more negatives than plusses at the moment. But that could change in 2013. I agree with Boudica that Grosjean likely would not have seen another season in F1 if it wasn't for an era of 'pay drivers.' But how could Grosjean be considered a 'pay driver' for all of the money in damages he has caused the team? Surely these damages must be in excess or nullify the money Grosjean brought to the team. Which essentially means the team aren't making money by having him as a driver after factoring in the salary (~1million if I recall correctly).

The problem with Grosjean is his (lack of) spatial awareness. This is a recurring theme from lesser formulae. And it has hindered his driving at the highest level. There is no question he is very fast in qualifying. But spatial awareness doesn't have to be taken into account during Q3. And points aren't scored on Saturday. As Kimi routinely showed his teammate throughout 2012. Can Grosjean overcome this defunct in his driving? If he does: than the future may be bright. But another year of Crash-Jean will surely spell the end of his F1 career at Lotus.

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Yes and of course he gets confirmed.

I agree that Hulkenberg would have been the right choice if they are looking towards the future.

On other forums am seeing a lot of people repeating the phrase that you can easily get a fast driver to learn consistency but you cant make a slow driver fast. " title="roll" />

What a bunch of rubbish in my opinion. All of the champions in the last 20 years have come to the sport with speed and consistency, it is a package deal. One could argue that consistency is fact almost more important. These days the differences between drivers speed wise are small, in fact one could argue that the thing that sets the champions apart is that they are consistent.

Grosjean sort of reminds me a bit of Montoya, a great driver with good speed but in the end he was always just a bit to error prone. The teamate battle should be interesting this year, last year Grosjean was the tyre tester and he knew Lotus well as he was with the team for a while before Kimi was there. Next Kimi will atleast know the team better.
But you never really know perhaps the confidence Lotus has displayed in Grosjean will pay off, he might feel a bit more secure now and perform better.

Zitat von Boudica

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On other forums am seeing a lot of people repeating the phrase that you can easily get a fast driver to learn consistency but you cant make a slow driver fast.

What a bunch of rubbish in my opinion. All of the champions in the last 20 years have come to the sport with speed and consistency, it is a package deal. One could argue that consistency is fact almost more important. These days the differences between drivers speed wise are small, in fact one could argue that the thing that sets the champions apart is that they are consistent.

Grosjean sort of reminds me a bit of Montoya, a great driver with good speed but in the end he was always just a bit to error prone. The teamate battle should be interesting this year, last year Grosjean was the tyre tester and he knew Lotus well as he was with the team for a while before Kimi was there. Next Kimi will atleast know the team better.
But you never really know perhaps the confidence Lotus has displayed in Grosjean will pay off, he might feel a bit more secure now and perform better.

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could not agree more! " title="" />

I haven't been watching F1 long enough to comment on drivers of the past 20 years. In regards to your comment about the drivers who come with speed and consistency: would it be fair to say Jenson Button is the exception? I personally see Jenson as a solid driver. But lacks speed compared to the upper echelon and at times lacks consistency. And I ask if he's the exception because of the clear car advantage and the unwillingness of other teams to put a double-decker diffuser on their cars until Charlie finally said "It's OK to have" several races into the season.

Awesome job describing consistency and speed. Again, I didn't get to see the F1 of "ages ago." But the current era of driver-car package at times makes it hard to distinguish which pilot has more outright speed in a team, let alone on the grid. And an emphasis seems to be placed on both driver AND car reliability. Car Reliability almost let Vettel down in 2010 and 2012. And the car and driver consistency of Alonso almost won him a title in 2012 despite not having the quickest car on the grid.

It was not just other people on forums who said that phrase. Edd Straw also said something similar in his Autosport article. I think the statement may apply to some drivers. But I think it is too vague to apply to EVERY driver. And you did a great job by highlighting Montoya. Let me compare and contrast. I think both Pastor Maldonado and Romain Grosjean could be placed in the category of "fast driver that needs to learn consistency." But I personally see more upside to Pastor at the moment than Grosjean. This could change, but we will see. The problem with applying this statement to Grosjean is his history and current form. He has lacked spatial awareness in lower formulae and clearly demonstrated this flaw in Formula 1. I have seen a lot more DRIVERS say that it is either a skill you possess or you don't. And I highlight drivers because they drive the car, not reporters or other forum members. I do agree he has serious pace. But I fear that the pace is limited to qualifying. Contrast Hamilton. He was easily quick enough to win a world title in his rookie season. And that pace was not just apparent on Saturday. Which I would argue is the case for Grosjean. Aside from Canada, I can't recall a race where Grosjean looked quicker than Kimi on Sunday. Please feel free to correct me if this isn't the case. This is why I said "I see more plusses than minuses" with Grosjean. I think he seems better than the current crop of 'pay drivers,' but ultimately appears to lack a few traits/qualities to those who become elite at this level in motorsport.

Lotus have chosen to give him a chance to display his skill set. Maybe he will make believers into the current doubters during his second season with Lotus. We will see

neither can i...but it was there yesterday " title="ha" />

Zitat von jpp47

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Bad luck for all other drivers Mr Crash will still damage / injure others

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What's interesting is Boullier admitted he was able to find the "fastest driver" to pair Kimi. And Grosjean was chosen because the team felt like his attitude has changed significantly and the team feels like he has learned enough from his mistakes to continue..